|
|
Post by Ividia on Mar 1, 2016 14:42:27 GMT 9
Hello 歴女 and 歴男(?) This is a thread for when you have to translate history stuff and get stuck. I wanted to ask your opinions on some historical terminology, and thought it might be useful to make a thread for reference instead of getting lost in general questions! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, the tourism division is very excited about the upcoming taiga dorama and they're trying to update all their 戦国 related information boards and landmarks and maps etc. These include a lot of castles. Or, ex-castles, like this one: castle.slowstandard.com/25tokai/28shizuoka/post_112.htmlThe important information here is 現状・遺構等 現状：田園 遺構等：石碑、説明板 It is literally just fields
Personally, I think calling this "castle ruins" (the translation of 城跡 that currently appears on the maps etc) is inappropriate because there is nothing there.
"Ruins" to me implies that there is a building and the building is ruined. I suggested "remains" which sounds broader and doesn't imply an ACTUAL building (e.g. you can have saxon remains in the UK that are earthworks and archeological signs where buildings used to be). Now they want to know "Where does a remain end and a ruin begin? It wouldn't be good if tourists turned up and were disappointed that there was just a field, but can we have a rule so we know which to use in future?" They've told me they would be willing to change it on maps/information boards/maybe even road signs so I'm pretty pleased they're listening to my opinion (but also pressure). And...the difference between ruin and remain seems subjective at best when referring to European castles. In the case of Japanese castles, I'd be inclined to say if there are still the original 石垣 then "ruins" seems okay, but if we're talking earthworks (looking at you 山中城跡) or just a monument in a field (looking at you 長篠城跡) then "remains" is more appropriate. Does anyone have any opinion or an example from their placement? ( G-Rex you seem like you might know also The Occasional Freighnos what do you do for the GUSUKUs?) tl;dr are 城跡 ruins or remains and what is the difference |
|
|
|
Post by snell_mouse on Mar 1, 2016 14:51:12 GMT 9
I know nothing about history or castles but if I saw the words "castle ruins" I would expect to see some stones (assuming the castle was made of stones), or some sort of material in a regular pattern that looked like it could once have been a building.
Remains could be anything, really. Much lower expectations there.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Occasional Freighnos on Mar 1, 2016 14:53:28 GMT 9
Hmm, this is tricky.
Unfortunately I haven't done any GUSUKU related translations that went into this much detail, so I don't have any past examples to go off.
I agree that "ruins" implies that there would be something left. However, "remains," to me at least, would also indicate that something...you know, remains. A literal empty field wouldn't really fit, in my opinion.
For 城跡, Rikai-kun also suggests "castle site." I don't think this is 100% of the way there either, but there must be some way to indicate that there used to be a castle there at one point in the past without implying that there is anything left.
Something like "Ancient castle site" is a bit closer in my mind, but maybe not perfect.
I suggest using "ruins" in the case when there is still some rubble left, and something along the lines of "site" when there's nothing left.
Anyways, I hope that gives you something to build off (heh).
|
|
|
|
Post by miscreative on Mar 1, 2016 14:59:29 GMT 9
"former site/location of"?
idk. remains also sounds like /something/ remains. if it all has been cleared away and the only thing in the field is a monument for it i think that doesnt count?
|
|
G-Rex
Dead Stargod 
killed SAKAMOTO LYOMA with crappa sushi
hi
Posts: 7,198 
CIR Experience: Former CIR
|
Post by G-Rex on Mar 1, 2016 15:01:27 GMT 9
agree with "ruins" meaning something visible is still there to some extent. stone foundations, earthworks, what have you. remains sounds more vague, but i was also thinking "(former) site of castle" or something, like The Occasional Freighnos suggested. if there is/are: castle building(s) still intact: "castle name" fortifications, foundations, a general "castle or fortification" shape still visible: "castle name ruins" very little remaining that would suggest this area was once a castle: "site of (ruined) castle name" or "former site of castle name" that's how i would go about it. i think it is very subjective, but if the average person goes to the place without any prompting and asks "was there a castle or some large-scale construction here before?" then that could be considered ruins. i feel like remains is more for things like, pottery or other archaeological finds, so i would personally go for "site" if there's nothing there like in your example, Ividia. |
|
|
|
Post by Caic on Mar 1, 2016 15:04:51 GMT 9
Huh, we just a PROPER ORIGINAL CASTLE so i dont know how the distinctions on ruins work.
I agree that ruins sounds like there should be something there, at least like what we saw at Ishikawa when we hiked that thing. Some stone walls or SOMETHING. Remains does sound broader but then like, I would still expect there to be something, you know, remaining.
I like hose's idea of Ancient castle site or something, cos i think that encapsulates what you mean with it being where a castle stood but doesnt actually have any remains or anything there anymore.
Not my area of expertise in terms of castle tbh. If anything about KOKHO, or existing/original castles I am more than ready to help though.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ividia on Mar 1, 2016 15:22:55 GMT 9
Good opinions guys, much appreciated! "Former Site of X Castle " sounds like it would be the most accurate, and an alternative that I came across. I think I'd have a harder time convincing them because it's longer and less of a snappy title, unfortunately (especially with road signs). It may be unnecessarily complicated, but I think I'll propose something along the lines of: X Castle = yep, that's a castle (reconstructed or original) X Castle Ruins = there is blatant evidence of a man-made structure of the time (i.e. stone walls, like 七尾城跡、well remembered Caic, bonus points) X Castle Remains = the evidence for the castle is still there but only if you know where to look (i.e. archaeological evidence, "this bit of grass used to be a moat look at the dip" kind of level) Former Site of X Castle = this is a field, guys, come on Also, I looked it up and the official UNESCO site calls the GUSUKU castle ruins but the official GUSUKU site calls them Castle Remains so that was helpful (shoutout to The Occasional Freighnos for your 参考) |
|
|
|
Post by telly on Mar 1, 2016 15:35:15 GMT 9
"What ruins of the day"
Interesting topic, since I sometimes have to do English translations for all the historical stuff related to my workplace and World War I.
|
|
|
|
Post by Caic on Mar 1, 2016 15:40:07 GMT 9
rememeber to add NATIONAL TREASURE before the name every time you mention it, if it is one. And I mean EVERY TIME. I can send you photographic evidence of how importantly we take this in Matsue if you want.
(Thats what KOKHO is in english in case you didn't know)
|
|
|
|
Post by songbanana on Mar 7, 2016 14:20:27 GMT 9
Yes, thank you all for vindicating me on the need to have a difference between "Castle" and "Castle Ruins" and "Former Site of X Castle"! Visitor expectations are important.
I don't have anything to add except that I also sometimes struggle with Castle vs. Castle Museum, for example in my old town Big-Many-Happy the castle is a museum categorized as a branch of the prefectural museum, so the official title in Japanese is Thousand Leaves Prefectural Central Museum Big-Many-Happy Castle Branch Museum, and Big-Many-Happy Castle is just an abbreviation.
|
|
|
|
Post by songbanana on Mar 22, 2016 16:11:58 GMT 9
|
|
|
|
Post by no yark shark on Mar 22, 2016 16:42:58 GMT 9
(I knew the difference between iron and steel from crafting in RPGs...)
|
|
|
|
Post by Ividia on Apr 20, 2016 14:26:51 GMT 9
Hello hulemdos
Does anyone have any good glossaries or references for historical terminology, particularly titles?
I'm looking for 城主 in particular, and either an English term or an explanation of the sengoku structure and roles might help.
So far I've got "Lord of the castle" (clumsy and maybe not applicable - trying to translate "女城主") and castellan
Which uh
I'm not sure it would be widely understood
|
|
|
|
Post by songbanana on Apr 20, 2016 14:46:06 GMT 9
Hello hulemdos Does anyone have any good glossaries or references for historical terminology, particularly titles? I'm looking for 城主 in particular, and either an English term or an explanation of the sengoku structure and roles might help. So far I've got "Lord of the castle" (clumsy and maybe not applicable - trying to translate "女城主") and castellan Which uh I'm not sure it would be widely understood In my experience, one of the things about studying Japanese history that made/makes me want to rip my hair out is that the more academic and high-level the source, the more romaji you're likely to encounter. A "baby's first samurai book" or cursory guide for an introductory course would probably use terms like "lord of the castle" (I had to look up castellan honestly), but a book on the Warring States Period would say and thereafter refer to it as jōshu and now you just gotta remember that Japanese word. Rinse and repeat for every noun in the book. The problem is that there often isn't an exact equivalent in English, or the context or connotations are different. So if it's important to get it exactly right (and not to confuse the reader with your interpretation of what English translation is more accurate), romaji is probably the best way to go. But if it's just a PR pamphlet you'll need some kind of parenthetical explanation at least... anyway I found this glossary of "samurai terms" and I am a frequent visitor of the glossary of Japanese history and apparently there's a sengoku wiki? |
|
|
|
Post by Ividia on Apr 20, 2016 15:05:04 GMT 9
Yes songbanana that sums it up so well The options of - go over the heads of most readers with confusing romaji (that sometimes doesn't even need to be in romaji?? I swear sometimes articles like that will be like "the ohashi (lit. "honourable chopsticks") or other similarly pointless example of not translating perfectly translatable words) - simplify it to the extent that I'll change the meaning or have some kind of misunderstanding Those links are really helpful though! (incidentally I came across the "samurai terms" one doing my own search and that is where I came across "castellan"...also...new to me) I stumbled across this, which might be of interest to people too: wwwap.hi.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ships/shipscontroller-eUnfortunately the glossary of Japanese historical terms only had 城主 come up in German (for some reason), but it seems like it might be a fun reference. Edit: I even went as far to borrow the communal internet computer to log into to forums and reply to this because history references are serious business |
|
|
|
Post by songbanana on Apr 20, 2016 15:15:21 GMT 9
I'm glad they were helpful, even if they don't really solve your problem...
What I do personally is see if they pass a non-history-major BS test, aka "would my brother care/understand?" (my brother is an engineer, replace with your own sibling/Japan-ignorant relative)
My brother probably would not care if these were in reasonable English, picked at random:
城主 castle lord
城下町 castle town
兜 (samurai) helmet
Things he would probably not mind if they were in romaji with a brief parenthetical explanation:
観音・菩薩 Kannon Boddhisatva
神輿 mikoshi (not sure if he could picture a "portable shrine"
鬼・妖怪 "Japanese ghost" doesn't quite do it
That kind of thing.
|
|
