hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Jul 20, 2022 21:57:02 GMT 9
question: does anyone here work at a place different from their contracting organisation? my contracting organisation is officially a village yakuba. they pay my salary etc. but I have made to work some place entirely different. my ninyo kisoku make no reference to the organisation that I work at, only to the village. I am not officially an employee of this organisation that I work at, and I am treated like an outsider by them. it is not clear what my legal relationship to them is. I am trying to figure out if this is legal or normal, because it is causing a lot of problems....but it's easier said than done...
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Post by manjuっすけ on Jul 21, 2022 9:04:01 GMT 9
question: does anyone here work at a place different from their contracting organisation? my contracting organisation is officially a village yakuba. they pay my salary etc. but I have made to work some place entirely different. my ninyo kisoku make no reference to the organisation that I work at, only to the village. I am not officially an employee of this organisation that I work at, and I am treated like an outsider by them. it is not clear what my legal relationship to them is. I am trying to figure out if this is legal or normal, because it is causing a lot of problems....but it's easier said than done... One, I'm sorry to hear that you're being treated like this. I would say this is pretty common with ALTs? Like, officially they're contracted by a Board of Education and are town hall employees on paper, but the actual place they work at are the local school(s) Would you feel comfortable expounding on what kinds of problems this is causing (communication, workflow, etc.)?
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Post by Springjay on Jul 21, 2022 10:30:30 GMT 9
question: does anyone here work at a place different from their contracting organisation? my contracting organisation is officially a village yakuba. they pay my salary etc. but I have made to work some place entirely different. my ninyo kisoku make no reference to the organisation that I work at, only to the village. I am not officially an employee of this organisation that I work at, and I am treated like an outsider by them. it is not clear what my legal relationship to them is. I am trying to figure out if this is legal or normal, because it is causing a lot of problems....but it's easier said than done... Maybe this isn't quite the same, so I'm sorry if it's not actually helpful. But maybe for reference to another non-traditional work setting? This isn't me, but some of my coworkers (who are Japanese). I'm a direct hire, so I technically work for city hall, under the culture division. But since city hall doesn't have an international anything department, it has teamed up with an international relations society. The society is physically located inside city hall (but on a completely different floor/area than the culture division), and some workers within it are city hall employees while one is employed by the society. Legally there are some ways these two organizations are separate, and some ways where they kinda combine/overlap. If the society was located elsewhere, I think there's a good chance I and my coworkers would be there working instead. The culture division also includes things like the local art museums, for example, and those employees go to the museum and work museum hours despite being technically city hall employees (or at least this is my understanding of it, I could be wrong though).
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hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Jul 21, 2022 15:36:31 GMT 9
So, to explain further....
I was officially placed in the village yakuba, 観光商工課. They pay my salary. My 任用規則 only refer to yakuba. However, I was told on my first day that I would only work at the yakuba once a week, and the rest of time, I would work at the local 観光協会. The 観光協会 is an independent company, and its employees are not city workers. The 観光協会 does receive some funding from the yakuba, of course. My supervisor is at the yakuba.
In any case, in actual practice, I was dumped at the 観光協会. I have never worked at the yakuba. The 観光協会 has no idea why I am there, does not treat me as a member of staff, and gives me only menial tasks of cleaning, etc. I have no desk, no business cards (it has been 3 months), and no real work. I have been made to do dangerous things on many occasions, and last week, I suffered an severe accident at work that left with me with a concussion, black eye, chipped tooth, stitches, whiplash and my arm in a sling. I am now on 病休 with 労災 covering my expenses. I only managed to get 労災 and 病休 after appealing to my real yakuba supervisor to come look at me, at which point she was horrified and asked me to stay with her. The 観光協会 people said I was 'fine', that a day of 年休 should be sufficient...despite the doctor saying to rest at least a week. There has been a pattern of harassment at the 観光協会.
As before, I have no official contract with the 観光協会. No legal relationship with them whatsoever, as far as I can tell. No piece of paper specifies that I work there or what my duties are. The 観光協会 has no concern for my safety or anything about me, because I am not of their concern. I really don't feel safe working there, and I feel like this way of working must be illegal. I have contacted some helplines for legal information, and it really seems like this cannot be right. Even in normal cases of 出向, there should be some piece of paper somewhere specifying that...
I have made numerous attempts to speak to my real supervisor, but I made the mistake of trying to communicate in the subtle Japanese way, so it seems it did not get through. That's my own mistake.
Today, I finally managed to have the courage to speak to her and she burst into tears and said it was all her fault, and that I should give her one last chance to resolve the situation. Apparently, no one here was ready for my arrival in April, and they had no idea what to do with me (I am the first CIR here). This was already made apparent when I was made to stay in temporary accommodation at my own expense for a month. My arrival also perfectly coincided with 異動, so my supervisor also had no idea what was going on, despite that not being an excuse. That's all fine and good, maybe she will be able to resolve the situation. But, I don't feel safe working at the 観光協会...with no legal protections, in a grey zone where no piece paper establishes my legal relationship to that company.
sorry for the diatribe
tldr, is anyone aware of a situation where one is employed by a contracting organisation but made to work in a completely different workplace, without any contract or other document specifying the existence or nature of that deployment?
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Post by manjuっすけ on Jul 21, 2022 15:47:50 GMT 9
hettieso First I am really sorry to hear not only that you've been put in a dangerous situation, but that the kankou kyoukai people just...brushed off serious injuries? Have you had any contact with the Prefectural Advisors (PAs) for your area? I think you should try contacting them and detailing your situation so that at least there is a paper trail. As far as what your legal options are, it'd probably be best to seek out a consultation from a lawyer who works in labor law Also, would it be possible to ask your supervisor if, when you're back from sick leave, if you could actually report to the yakuba?
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Post by Springjay on Jul 21, 2022 15:51:02 GMT 9
that is awful hettieso! You already were able to get solid advice from those legal helplines right? If not, there's one in my prefecture that does once a month free consultations for foreign residents. I bet you could lie and say you lived in Gun Mother to qualify to talk to them, so I'd be happy to supply that info if it would be of any use to you. But if you already got resources/advice from the ones you contacted I guess you're all set That sounds so sketchy and really messed up. Please don't let them pressure you into doing anything unsafe, especially if it's not very explicitly stated in your contract! I hope your supervisor has their butt in gear to get it resolved, but in the meantime, couldn't you ask them to allow you to come to the yakuba to work after you recover? Please document everything super well too in case that can be used to your advantage (should you find they're being illegal and have a chance to sue them or something).
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superalicat
CIRHP admin
CIRHP's Silver Swiftie
i cry a lot but i am so productive, it's an art
Posts: 7,850
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Post by superalicat on Jul 22, 2022 11:48:24 GMT 9
as a PA myself, i would say this should go to CLAIR. the fact that you got injured on your job is enough to warrant a report, and if you feel unsafe and nobody has any plans in place for you and even your supervisor doesn't know what's going on, i think they need someone with more authority to step in
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hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Jul 22, 2022 12:53:48 GMT 9
as a PA myself, i would say this should go to CLAIR. the fact that you got injured on your job is enough to warrant a report, and if you feel unsafe and nobody has any plans in place for you and even your supervisor doesn't know what's going on, i think they need someone with more authority to step in further research has revealed that the CIR visa specifically precludes the visa-holder from being made to do manual labour (including the pool cleaning which has been the majority of my duties)...so in others words, someone is in real trouble here. I want to give my supervisor that last chance. she apparently spoke with the 観光協会 head and he will come visit me tomorrow to have a frank discussion. however, it seems like I am probably going to have to go to CLAIR. do you mind explaining to me the procedure for that? do I go through a PA, or direct?
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superalicat
CIRHP admin
CIRHP's Silver Swiftie
i cry a lot but i am so productive, it's an art
Posts: 7,850
CIR Experience: 3rd year
Location: Toyama
Gender (Pronouns): she/her/hers
CHaos??: CHAOS
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Post by superalicat on Jul 22, 2022 13:06:24 GMT 9
as a PA myself, i would say this should go to CLAIR. the fact that you got injured on your job is enough to warrant a report, and if you feel unsafe and nobody has any plans in place for you and even your supervisor doesn't know what's going on, i think they need someone with more authority to step in further research has revealed that the CIR visa specifically precludes the visa-holder from being made to do manual labour (including the pool cleaning which has been the majority of my duties)...so in others words, someone is in real trouble here. I want to give my supervisor that last chance. she apparently spoke with the 観光協会 head and he will come visit me tomorrow to have a frank discussion. however, it seems like I am probably going to have to go to CLAIR. do you mind explaining to me the procedure for that? do I go through a PA, or direct? in my (limited) experience it might take time to go through a PA, but i have a feeling a japanese PA (JPA) would have access to CLAIR. however, their contact info's probably out there somewhere, (esp the general email). so if you want to have this addressed now it might be best to directly reach out to CLAIR Aya Raincoat any other advice as a fellow PA?
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Post by usamaru on Jul 22, 2022 14:38:55 GMT 9
as a PA myself, i would say this should go to CLAIR. the fact that you got injured on your job is enough to warrant a report, and if you feel unsafe and nobody has any plans in place for you and even your supervisor doesn't know what's going on, i think they need someone with more authority to step in further research has revealed that the CIR visa specifically precludes the visa-holder from being made to do manual labour (including the pool cleaning which has been the majority of my duties)...so in others words, someone is in real trouble here. I want to give my supervisor that last chance. she apparently spoke with the 観光協会 head and he will come visit me tomorrow to have a frank discussion. however, it seems like I am probably going to have to go to CLAIR. do you mind explaining to me the procedure for that? do I go through a PA, or direct? given the extremity of your situation, i would contact clair as soon as you can. your wellbeing is being endangered and that goes further than any "every situation is different" case that usually occurs. flick them an email through the gyoumu one and i hope they step on it. they will probably contact your CO though, so it's best to be on the same page with them if possible.
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hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Jul 22, 2022 20:20:07 GMT 9
I was wondering if I could ask for another piece of advice. I did decide to write to clair today, regardless of what happens with my supervisor, because as you guys said, this is a real mess. I appreciate your advice.
I don't know if I'm just being paranoid or what, but I realise that my supervisor has had my seal for a few days, out of my reach. she said she needed it for some paperwork. is there any possibility that the seal can be used in a way that can compromise my case? I'm afraid perhaps I don't really understand the implications of the seal in practice...or perhaps I'm just too trusting...
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Post by Springjay on Jul 25, 2022 9:02:21 GMT 9
I was wondering if I could ask for another piece of advice. I did decide to write to clair today, regardless of what happens with my supervisor, because as you guys said, this is a real mess. I appreciate your advice. I don't know if I'm just being paranoid or what, but I realise that my supervisor has had my seal for a few days, out of my reach. she said she needed it for some paperwork. is there any possibility that the seal can be used in a way that can compromise my case? I'm afraid perhaps I don't really understand the implications of the seal in practice...or perhaps I'm just too trusting... You are not under any obligation to allow them to have physical possession of your seal. In fact nobody is technically allowed to use it except you, so it's a little concerning to me that they have it at all. You should absolutely demand it back and just tell them you'll keep in on your person for whenever you need to use it for paperwork.
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Post by Aya Raincoat on Jul 25, 2022 9:58:17 GMT 9
I'm curious what CLAIR will say... Normally you would never contact them directly
If you haven't done so already, contact your PA and get the situation straight with your supervisor and the head of the association. From what you said, it sounds like she's willing to help? Definitely ask to get out of there. You should also get your inkan from her; it's weird that she has it instead of having you come in for the paperwork. Did she tell you what the paperwork is?
I hope you can figure out a solution; this sounds like a really bad situation :/
(Also, what's the deal with an international association like that just mistreating a foreigner?? Isn't helping them what they're supposed to do??)
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hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Jul 25, 2022 11:47:56 GMT 9
I was wondering if I could ask for another piece of advice. I did decide to write to clair today, regardless of what happens with my supervisor, because as you guys said, this is a real mess. I appreciate your advice. I don't know if I'm just being paranoid or what, but I realise that my supervisor has had my seal for a few days, out of my reach. she said she needed it for some paperwork. is there any possibility that the seal can be used in a way that can compromise my case? I'm afraid perhaps I don't really understand the implications of the seal in practice...or perhaps I'm just too trusting... You are not under any obligation to allow them to have physical possession of your seal. In fact nobody is technically allowed to use it except you, so it's a little concerning to me that they have it at all. You should absolutely demand it back and just tell them you'll keep in on your person for whenever you need to use it for paperwork. I asked for it back. She says she will bring it back today. Apparently, she was making up a 出勤簿 for me and stamping me in for every day I've been here. I haven't had a 出勤簿 since I arrived, despite asking for one numerous times. This is really concerning to me now...but rather than confront her, I will just wait for CLAIR's response because I feel really in over my head at this point
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Post by Springjay on Jul 25, 2022 11:57:57 GMT 9
You are not under any obligation to allow them to have physical possession of your seal. In fact nobody is technically allowed to use it except you, so it's a little concerning to me that they have it at all. You should absolutely demand it back and just tell them you'll keep in on your person for whenever you need to use it for paperwork. I asked for it back. She says she will bring it back today. Apparently, she was making up a 出勤簿 for me and stamping me in for every day I've been here. I haven't had a 出勤簿 since I arrived, despite asking for one numerous times. This is really concerning to me now...but rather than confront her, I will just wait for CLAIR's response because I feel really in over my head at this point I would try to get that in writing if you can, as proof that she had your hanko and was signing things without your permission... or at least make sure that's mentioned to CLAIR at some point in the follow up contact. Just to be safe yeah? I'm so sorry they're doing this to you ;-;
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hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Aug 3, 2022 17:58:12 GMT 9
so CLAIR responded. about a week ago they said they would contact the Japanese PA in my prefecture. I haven't heard anything from the Japanese PA, and I have no idea who they even are. sadly my prefecture doesn't seem to have a very good track record with CIR management. today, I got an email from CLAIR saying "we raised the matter with the Japanese PA", and "we understand that they are currently engaging with both you and your contracting organisation in order to help facilitate a resolution"...except, I have heard nothing from either the Japanese PA nor my supervisor....
no one has told me how the leave necessitated by the accident will be dealt with. no one has told me anything about anything...
I don't get it
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Post by Springjay on Aug 4, 2022 8:27:39 GMT 9
so CLAIR responded. about a week ago they said they would contact the Japanese PA in my prefecture. I haven't heard anything from the Japanese PA, and I have no idea who they even are. sadly my prefecture doesn't seem to have a very good track record with CIR management. today, I got an email from CLAIR saying "we raised the matter with the Japanese PA", and "we understand that they are currently engaging with both you and your contracting organisation in order to help facilitate a resolution"...except, I have heard nothing from either the Japanese PA nor my supervisor.... no one has told me how the leave necessitated by the accident will be dealt with. no one has told me anything about anything... I don't get it Can you find out how to contact the Japanese PA and put yourself in direct contact with them? If you have any JET PAs I'm sure they would know the Japanese PA's contact right?
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Post by Dee on Aug 5, 2022 8:57:40 GMT 9
so CLAIR responded. about a week ago they said they would contact the Japanese PA in my prefecture. I haven't heard anything from the Japanese PA, and I have no idea who they even are. sadly my prefecture doesn't seem to have a very good track record with CIR management. today, I got an email from CLAIR saying "we raised the matter with the Japanese PA", and "we understand that they are currently engaging with both you and your contracting organisation in order to help facilitate a resolution"...except, I have heard nothing from either the Japanese PA nor my supervisor.... no one has told me how the leave necessitated by the accident will be dealt with. no one has told me anything about anything... I don't get it If you don't mind sharing what prefecture you're in, maybe one of us can help find out who your PA would be
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hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Oct 1, 2022 18:25:17 GMT 9
thanks for all your help. as of the monday, I will be officially moving to the yakuba and my whole contract was rewritten. the existing contract was a complete mess, apparently...but with clair's help it seems to have been sorted. the question is whether my presence will be welcomed considering the amount of trouble there was...
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Post by Springjay on Oct 3, 2022 14:51:46 GMT 9
thanks for all your help. as of the monday, I will be officially moving to the yakuba and my whole contract was rewritten. the existing contract was a complete mess, apparently...but with clair's help it seems to have been sorted. the question is whether my presence will be welcomed considering the amount of trouble there was... you're such a champ, hanging in there despite the very dangerous (and I suspect illegal) conditions they had you working under. They better be grateful you've stayed as long as you have. You caused no trouble whatsoever, that was all on your CO. I hope it's a smooth transition for you, as you totally deserve to be treated better!!!
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hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Jun 19, 2023 18:17:38 GMT 9
so, an update. things somewhat improved after I moved to the yakuba, in the sense that I was no longer put in any dangerous situations, though as of today, I still don't have a corrected copy of my contract. however, I have had no work to do for months. zero, except for a few incidents of dealing with 'trouble' caused by foreign residents. I kept making up work for myself, writing proposals and this and that, but my kacho was clear with me that there is no budget for anything, nor will there be any budget for anything in the future. I made attempts to help with things related to international exchange, but a different department is in charge of these, and thus my involvement was deemed inappropriate. no one in the village has any interest in promoting inbound tourism according to my kacho, nor is there any budget for anything. I did my best to get involved in other people's work, directing traffic at major events and helping with covid vaccinations etc (no foreigners present), but even this was not enough to earn some real work of my own.
at first I felt some obligation to stay on because my supervisor went through the trouble of getting me out of the tourism association. however, it soon became clear this sense of obligation was pointless and only leading to a dead end, neither good for the village of for me, and the best thing to do was get out. I successfully managed to get a good job offer elsewhere, and so announced I would be leaving at the end of July. I said clearly to my kacho and soup: DO NOT GET A REPLACEMENT CIR. Unfortunately, it seems like there is a possibility that my soup is going ahead with plans to get a replacement despite this, to be placed back at the tourism association again, without any addressing any of the problems I have raised or bothering to consult with the tourism association.
so, I would like some advice. what can I do to convince my contracting organization NOT to call another CIR? this is a recipe for disaster and the thought of someone else being put in this situation because I made the selfish decision to leave is killing me.
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Post by Springjay on Jun 20, 2023 8:29:01 GMT 9
hettieso I'm so glad to hear that you were able to get yourself out, and advocate for your safety as much as possible. I also think it's nice that you're so concerned. I don't have any advice, because I think you were already in contact with your PAs and Clair and whatnot, but I don't think you should put any blame on yourself for what your crappy (soon-to-be)CO decides to do
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Post by Aya Raincoat on Jun 21, 2023 10:12:34 GMT 9
My only advice is to not think of yourself as selfish for getting out of an awful situation
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Post by wapiko on Jun 21, 2023 11:36:43 GMT 9
My only advice is to not think of yourself as selfish for getting out of an awful situation This, and also you should at least state which prefecture for warning IMO. No CIR should have to go through this. damn
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hettieso
Straight outta Narita
Posts: 29
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Post by hettieso on Jun 30, 2023 13:41:32 GMT 9
My only advice is to not think of yourself as selfish for getting out of an awful situation This, and also you should at least state which prefecture for warning IMO. No CIR should have to go through this. damn okinawa. a worse version of icepath's situation is the best way to describe it. her old posts were very helpful in getting me on the way out of here.
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